Relicans host, Chris Sean Dabatos, talks to Freelance Frontend Developer, Janine Marsh about teaching herself to code by herself during the pandemic, getting over her impostor syndrome, and the communities that motivated her to keep going.

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Jonan Scheffler: Hello and welcome to Launchies, proudly brought to you by New Relic's developer relations team, The Relicans. The Launchies podcast is about supporting new developers and telling their stories and helping you make the next step in what we certainly hope is a very long and healthy career in software. You can find the show notes for this episode along with all of The Relicans podcasts on developer.newrelic.com/podcasts. We're so glad you're here. Enjoy the show.

Chris Sean Dabatos: What is up, everyone? Welcome to another episode of the Launchies Podcast. Today I have a very special guest. Her name is Janine Marsh. Janine, I want to welcome you to the podcast. Thank you for joining me here today.

Janine Marsh: And thank you so much for having me.

Chris Sean: I really appreciate it. Well, it's really nice to meet you here. And I've got to know about you a little bit through my own, you know, learning more about you on the internet and stuff. And I know I've done my own research, but can you please just tell us a little bit more about who you are?

Janine: Yeah, absolutely. So like Chris introduced me, my name's Janine. I am a front-end web developer who started learning to code just over a year ago. I guess since the start of the pandemic; I have just dedicated that year to coding. And I have recently set out on my freelancing journey, which I got to say has been the biggest learning curve since starting to code. And it's been scary, and it's been exciting, and just lots of hope for the future.

Chris Sean: What about it is scary, and what about it is exciting?

Janine: I think being scared and being excited are on two opposite sides of the same spectrum. And I think what's scary is the unknown. There's been a lot of imposter syndrome, and I'm sure there will continue to be in the future. There have been a lot of questions like, am I ready for this? Have I learned enough? What if I fail? Also, there is doubt and also the question of what if I succeed? That a lot of people might be able to relate to. But what's exciting is the fact that I can say, "Wow, I've achieved this." I've worked so hard that people are asking to work with me. They see my talent, or they trust in my willingness to learn. So that's definitely exciting. Everyone I've met along this journey is exciting.

Chris Sean: [laughs] I'm someone you just met. So hopefully, that applies to me as well. [laughs]

Janine: Oh, absolutely. I've definitely been excited for this interview for sure.

Chris Sean: Oh, no. Thank you. And you know what? You're awesome and exciting. And the things that you shared just now, the things that I guess you could say are your fears, an interesting fear you said is, what if I succeed?

Janine: That's definitely one of my fears. And I don't know if a lot of people can relate to that, or maybe they just don't realize that that could be a fear.

Chris Sean: Yeah. I mean, if I can share this, I totally relate to that. What if I succeed? One of the things that I thought about for myself...I was also a self-taught developer five years ago. And one of the things I remember telling myself was, what if I actually make it, then it's taken away from me because I really wasn't meant to be there in the first place? That was my fear when it came to that; what if I do make it, and then it gets taken away? [laughs] And that's just another form of imposter syndrome. Is that where you're coming from, or what do you mean by that exactly?

Janine: I guess it's also in the unknown like, what could success look like? What could it lead to? I guess not scary as in a big fear, but it's just part of the unknown that we may not have fully envisioned for ourselves, especially someone like me who definitely did not have a linear journey into tech.

Chris Sean: I mean, you started learning code not too long ago. I believe it was early last year. So you've been doing this for about a year and a half now.

Janine: Yeah, just about that.

Chris Sean: And the fact that you're still going as a self-taught front-end developer. You taught yourself React. You are doing design fundamentals, HTML and CSS, Vanilla JavaScript. That is not easy. And the fact you're still going as a self-taught developer for a year and a half that's really encouraging to see. Because I'll tell you this, I've spoken to thousands of people, and unfortunately, more than half of them gave up. So I'm really curious to hear what is it that kept you going?

Janine: It was actually the community I was able to meet through Twitter that really kept me going. And I wish I could remember the exact moment that I stumbled upon the #TechTwitter community.

Chris Sean: #TechTwitter is amazing. [laughs]

Janine: Yeah, it has been awesome. But I do remember coming across the #100DaysOfCode hashtag, and I remember putting that hashtag. This was when I committed to learning to code. It was what I wanted to do. I was like, okay, and I logged into my Twitter account, which I had rarely used. I had it for a few years. I was just shouting into the void with...I was just using it for unpopular opinions and just not much. And I stumbled upon the #100DaysOfCode hashtag, and I just said, "Hi, I'm new here." And all of a sudden, tons of people were like, "Hey, welcome. This community is awesome. We're here to support you." And I was like, wow, okay. I had no idea that this could even exist because, at the time, this was last June, or so I think I had less than 50 followers. And like I said, I was just shouting into the void whenever I would use Twitter. I actually did finish the 100 Days of Code. I definitely coded for 100 days and beyond.

Chris Sean: I've checked out your GitHub, and you've committed quite a bit to your GitHub. [laughs]

Janine: Yes. That's been pretty active. I just felt that what I was...I was like, no one's going to want to hear that I learned an array in JavaScript on day 33 of code. I just want to tell everyone listening that people do care, and people can totally relate if you've had to refactor something ten times. That's a highly relatable thing. So don't worry if you think it's boring.

Chris Sean: And it does not matter where you are in your career, aspiring, current developer, senior, principal, staff engineer, whatever you are, freelance, business owner, people are interested. And I feel like Twitter is really growing so much, especially in the tech industry. The community is so helpful. They really support you. And this has happened to me many times; they keep you very accountable [laughs] for things you say that you will do.

Janine: Oh yes. [laughs]

Chris Sean: #TechTwitter is really amazing. And I'm really curious, so you said earlier, not in this podcast, but you said it in an email how you were a bartender. You were working as a bartender, and you took a long leave of absence, and then you started learning code. And so I'm curious, did you just get tired of doing bartending, or were you thinking there's something better I can do in my life? What is it that made you actually leave that, take that long leave of absence and then get into code?

Janine: Yeah, I was a bartender for a number of years, Downtown Toronto right beside the arena.

Chris Sean: Toronto. [chuckles]

Janine: Lots of hockey crowd, lots of basketball crowd.

Chris Sean: Were you working there when the Toronto Raptors won The NBA Finals?

Janine: So that was the day that I started taking a vacation at the time, but every single game --

Chris Sean: Wow. Good timing. [laughs]

Janine: I had reservations booked at a bar downtown for that night. So that's where I was, and it was chaos.

Chris Sean: Yeah, I can imagine.

Janine: I will tell you that yes, I was working during the rest of the games. And it was actually a pretty small bar. It was just a small wine and beer bar with a capacity of 150. And I think we had 700 people in there that night for those nights.

Chris Sean: Oh my gosh.

Janine: Yeah, you couldn't even walk through.

Chris Sean: [chuckles]

Janine: It was a great job. I did love the work, and I even became a certified beer enthusiast. And just because I do take my job seriously, I wanted to offer the best service and the best knowledge of the product that I absolutely could. And I even did my own wine tastings and things like that. But the environment because I worked at that job for over a decade…

Chris Sean: Wow, okay.

Janine: The environment was a little bit toxic. And it was something that I originally thought I would be in for a couple of years. But it just got to a point where I was guaranteed full-time employment. I had benefits.

Chris Sean: Steady income.

Janine: Yeah, definitely steady income. And I made lots of cash and tips, and I loved my regulars and things like that. But I always knew that there was something else for me. I was just, again, in this fear of leaving. I lived in Toronto. Everything was really expensive, and the job market was just getting very precarious, so I was like, I need to hold on to this job. And then, of course, a rewind to March 2020, we suddenly had to shut down.

Chris Sean: Oh, okay.

Janine: We had to shut down the bar. I remember having customers actually at the bar and then getting a call saying, "You got to close up right now."

Chris Sean: Wow.

Janine: I was like, oh, this is getting real.

Chris Sean: Yeah. You hear about the pandemic, and then now, oh gosh.

Janine: I was like, okay, this is getting real. So that's when I took a leave of absence. To this day, right now, I'm still not sure if they've reopened or not. I don't know.

Chris Sean: So, just to clarify, if this pandemic never happened, you would have never thought of diving into code.

Janine: I probably wouldn't have, no.

Chris Sean: Wow. Hold on. [laughs] You wouldn't have the 7.5K followers on Twitter. Wow, that is crazy. Okay. I'm sorry, I don't mean to interrupt you. When I look back looking at that, that's amazing.

Janine: It was truly a catalyst for me and so many other people. So what happened was, of course, I was home. We weren't allowed to go anywhere unless to the grocery store. And I thought to myself, I was like, okay Janine, we can't just do nothing. We can't just watch reruns of The Office all day long.

Chris Sean: As nice as that would be.

Janine: We would like to, but we can't.

Chris Sean: Yes. [laughs]

Janine: So I was like, okay, I'm home with my computer. What can I do? I need to take advantage of this situation somehow. And I saw that there were these little workshops going on, just free one or two-hour workshops that I could just join or talks. So I joined any of them that I could. I did a nutrition coaching one. I did social media management. There was coding. There was UX design. And there was even an Excel course, which was pretty funny. But I was like, oh, coding, I'd always been interested in it a little bit. And I used to see years ago or over the years these workshops that would say, "Coding for kids workshops, age 8 to 15." And I would think, oh man, I wish I could do that too. That looks really cool, and I'd love to know what it's all about. But I never for once thought that me with really not a big computer background or no CS degree would...or I thought, oh, I'm just not good at math, those things.

Chris Sean: I've done almost zero math. Okay, that's a lie. Maybe 5% of my job is math. [laughs]

Janine: [chuckles] Yeah, definitely. I've come across, in JavaScript, round, but that's about it. So I just never thought that it could be for me. And then I did the two-hour intro, and it was super simple. It was just this free workshop. And we just touched on what is HTML? Now let's change the color of this text with CSS. Let's add a picture; let's change the background. And I was like, okay, this could be totally interesting. This is kind of taking…I think I remember doing this when I had Myspace. And so, of course, my timeline became flooded with other coding. I did my research, and I came across this one platform called SheCodes. And I learned that it was created by this guy, Matt, who did plenty of work in the tech industry but noticed that there was a huge gender gap in the industry, and he wanted to fix that. So that's why he created SheCodes. And so I was like…

Chris Sean: Wait, it was created by a guy.

Janine: Yeah, it was.

Chris Sean: Wow.

Janine: But he wanted to see more women and girls learn to code. So I was like, that's really cool, that just totally vibes with me. So I signed up for that, and that's where I learned HTML, CSS, JavaScript, React, built some projects. So that's definitely officially where I got my start. And then once that was over, I just did more self-taught. I continued with React and ended up releasing my portfolio in April of this year.

Chris Sean: Nice, and it's a really nice portfolio. I looked at it, and it was impressive.

Janine: Thank you.

Chris Sean: And who were those people you actually worked with on your portfolio? When I was looking at your portfolio, were those clients, or were those projects that you made for yourself?

Janine: So a few of those were projects that I did specifically for the portfolio because I was like, man, I need to. So as I was working on my portfolio, I was also working on some of those. But my first client project I did as a freelancer is actually on there. It's a small business website for a brand new business that's called House ‘N Order. So that was my first client project. So I'm happy to display that out there.

Chris Sean: Yeah, it was impressive. I was impressed. Well, that's amazing just thinking of your journey just to go back to that. Because of a pandemic, not being able to work because you literally have no choice, which is insane to think of that, and then because of that, you dive into code. You go on #TechTwitter. You learned about SheCodes. I think shecodes.io, I believe, from what I've heard.

Janine: Yes, it is, yeah.

Chris Sean: And that's how you gained your experience to learn how to code. That's so impressive just to think about. And another question I have then, since then, since starting to dive into code, I'm curious to see or just to hear about how has that really affected your life since then?

Janine: It's affected my life definitely very positively.

Chris Sean: You made me sweat there. [laughs]

Janine: [laughs] I remember when I started. I remember when I was just thinking about signing up for the SheCodes program. I was envisioning what my life would be like in a year, in a couple of years. And of course, I didn't know how long the pandemic was going to last or what the world was going to look like, no idea. I just envisioned myself. And I also didn't know if I was going to freelance or if I was going to work for a company. But what I envisioned for myself was working for a company with a team that not only valued my contribution but looked up to me, listened to what I had to say, appreciated my work. And I just pictured myself walking into an office, being so happy and happy to be there and just loving every minute of it but also being challenged. I love a good challenge. So that's definitely where I think my love of coding came in because I was like, oh yeah, this is exactly the challenge that I needed. And it wasn't always fun, but it has definitely affected me positively. I have a lot of hope for the future that I didn't have for a while just because I felt so stuck and stagnant.

Chris Sean: You mean when you were working as a bartender, you felt like that was your life then and there. But by learning code, now you feel like you have more options.

Janine: Yeah, absolutely. I honestly felt like I was just constantly working and didn't have time for me. But now, as a freelancer, I’m still definitely working. I'm working harder than ever, but I feel like it's more positive for me; it’s healthier for me.

Chris Sean: Not as toxic.

Janine: Yeah, not as toxic. [chuckles] I have such an awesome community that I can lean on for support now. So that in itself is so much better and more than I could have asked for.

Chris Sean: And this is still only the beginning, though.

Janine: Definitely. This is just the tip of the iceberg here.

Chris Sean: And in Toronto. Are you still in Toronto? I apologize.

Janine: I'm not, actually. Also, with the pandemic, my family decided to move out of Toronto, which was also a really good decision.

Chris Sean: Smart move, yeah. Well, if I could share just to relate with you a little bit, I was laid off from my dream job in Los Angeles as a mid-level engineer. I loved that job. And when the pandemic started, it started around March or April. Then in July, I got laid off, which is exactly one year ago. But because I got laid off, I was able to focus on YouTube more, on my own branding, and creating my own content. And because I got laid off, now I work here at my company New Relic making more than two and a half times what I earned at that company. The thing is, if I didn't get laid off, if I didn't lose my job, I would still be there. And living in LA making as much as I did before, what I did there wasn't enough to survive. So I was still living paycheck to paycheck as a front-end developer.

And so, yeah, the pandemic sucks. It sucks big time. So many people lost their jobs. But for some people, for example, what happened to you, it actually turned out that it worked out for the good. It's so encouraging to see how you were able to use that negative part of your past (I mean, it's not negative. It's actually kind of positive when you think about it) to get you to where you are today. And so I'm really curious, where do you see yourself going from here on out? I know you're a freelancer right now, and I believe you just finished doing something for an agency. You finished a website for that agency. What are your plans here on out?

Janine: Right now, I'm reaching out to potential clients. I actually just had a meeting today with a potential client that's actually a brewery.

Chris Sean: Nice.

Janine: So that could be a really good fit because, of course, I have that beer education background.

Chris Sean: Yes. [laughs]

Janine: So I had a meeting with them earlier today, which was my first ever Zoom meeting with a client.

Chris Sean: How was that? Nerve-wracking? [laughs]

Janine: It was so nerve-wracking, but I prepared. I was prepared with questions and a little bit of design initiatives to show them, just to show what I had in my imagination and to show that I was excited about the project. But I had to remember that I'm the developer, I'm the designer, I own this.

Chris Sean: Everything. Yep.

Janine: Yeah, I have to own it. I have to show that I know my stuff. So it was good, but definitely afterwards, my nerves were gone. But yeah, so fingers crossed for that. But otherwise, I need to continue learning and getting better every day, so whether that's learning more design skills or just anything that can help me with creating websites, the best product that I can for clients. I'm going to learn how to do that.

Chris Sean: How is it going from working as an employee for that bartending job and actually now running your own business? How is the difference between that? Obviously, you probably work more hours, maybe don't, which would be nice. But from my personal experience, I also have a side development business, and that takes just as much time as my 40 hours per week job that I do as a developer as well. So how do you do that? How does your normal day or week look like now that you're trying to get clients on your own? Now you're coding for them. You're doing the design, meeting with them.

Janine: Well, definitely, the transition to working from home hasn't been the easiest because I definitely need to set boundaries. And it's interesting that so many people say, "Oh, I started freelancing to quit the nine-to-five." But I find that actually setting those nine-to-five hours really helps me still.

Chris Sean: Great. You still do nine-to-five.

Janine: Yeah, for the most part.

Chris Sean: Wow, okay.

Janine: Yeah, unless I have a deadline coming up. Or with the agency, there were some times where we had to hop on Zoom late at night or pair program on the weekends. And like, that's going to be completely understandable when there's a deadline coming up. But otherwise, I make sure I exercise in the morning. And then maybe it's not nine-to-five, maybe sometimes it's ten-to-four, maybe it's ten-to-six or something like that. But that's the flexibility that I can have. If I need to run errands or have an appointment during the day, I can just go do that.

Chris Sean: That's really nice.

Janine: That's definitely a great thing instead of worrying about having to book that time off. But definitely, what has totally been brand new for me is sending an invoice or writing up a contract and just doing those terms and conditions, the small print.

Chris Sean: I hate doing that stuff. [laughs] I hate that part personally. But it's so necessary.

Janine: And of course before...and I will come into this later on in my whole journey, I'm sure, but doing your taxes thing, which I have not encountered on my own yet. So please pray for me. [laughs]

Chris Sean: Why'd you bring that up? Oh, the taxes, the taxes. So as someone who has my own side business as well, that is the scariest part for me in running a business. So making sure you keep all your receipts, making sure you pay the taxes. That's always terrifying, especially in your first year or two or three in business, and you're doing all your own accounting and et cetera that can be terrifying. But you got this, [laughs] you made it this far. You got this.

Janine: Yeah, I got it. Oh, and also another thing probably the biggest difference for me was, okay, now I have to buy my own health care benefits. They don't come with my work, but that's okay. I had to really realize that that was a big reason why I felt stuck, but I had to let go of that and be like, Janine, we can do this on our own. We don't need to stay somewhere where we're not growing just for these benefits.

Chris Sean: True. That's very true. Actually, if I may share, one of the reasons I became an engineer the number one reason was for benefits actually. But now that I have my side business as well, a lot of things that I receive from a company, I can do that on my own now, and it changes the way you think. It changes the way you see the world, to be honest, coming from trying to build your own business, et cetera.

The question I want to ask you as well is, is your goal from here on out primarily to just build your own business, to get more clients and grow this web development or this agency that you're building on your own? What are your goals of that? And I'm really curious to hear from that because there are a lot of people who want to do freelance, who want to try to do what you're doing.

Janine: Oh yeah, absolutely. Definitely, my goal is to have more clients, and I would love to get to a point where I have returning clients and that I can do maintenance for them. And I've definitely seen other people be very successful in starting an agency. I definitely don't want to sell myself short or shrink myself. That hasn't been something on my mind. But I wouldn't say no in the future. I know I have, like I said, for just learning web development; I’ve only just scratched the surface. But I believe I'm doing the most that I can with the knowledge that I have and making good use of my time. I've gotten a couple of paid projects already, so that's definitely exciting. But yeah, I would love to just grow that business. I would love for maybe someone to say, "Oh, you know what? I need this specific service, or I need my website redone, or I want to increase my web presence." I would love for someone to say, "You know who does that? Janine."

Chris Sean: [laughs] Heck yeah. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next year or so that you'd be there. And so it sounds like you don't plan on actually working for a company, but you really just want to build this on your own. Like, that is it. You're set on that.

Janine: Yeah, absolutely. I think if I thought the right position or something like that came along, I wouldn't shy away from that. But for right now, and especially because I worked for over a decade for somebody else, this time has just been so full of growth for me and just so much more fulfilling that I don't see it happening at the moment.

Chris Sean: Definitely. No, that makes total sense. The route you're going right now seems like it's working. [laughs] So don't stop there. Keep going.

Janine: Thank you.

Chris Sean: If it's working, it's working. You're taking a harder route, but hey, that's not for everyone. And the fact that you're doing that and you're going all out in full force, when you think about it, there are so many people in the world that want to be able to do that. And you just went from bartender to web developer overnight. It feels like overnight. It's not overnight, of course, but you left what you were so comfortable in. I mean, you had no choice, and now you're where you're at now. And the goals you have are obtainable. It's going to be hard. You're going to fail at times, but I could really picture that working. And to be honest, you having a presence on the internet will help a lot if you can figure out a way how to do that. So it's really exciting to see. Wow. It's encouraging because I talk with so many people who give up, and you hear someone like you go through what you've been through and to really push hard. It's exciting. And honestly, I'm really glad that I follow you on Twitter because I'm really excited to see where you go from here.

Janine: Yeah, thank you. I'll tell you, Chris, it hasn't been easy. There were definitely times where a small window when I could go into a Starbucks and sit and work that I just sat at my laptop with code in front of me and had tears in my eyes because I was frustrated. I had thoughts of like, oh, is this for me? I don't know. Am I good enough? That's something that I think, especially people brand new to the industry or people who are aspiring to be in the industry, need to know about my journey. There have definitely been times where I didn't feel all that good about it. And I've learned so much about myself too.

Chris Sean: You have no choice but to learn more about yourself when you hit a wall, [laughs] when you want to give up.

Janine: [chuckles] Yeah.

Chris Sean: You realize, oh, I can just climb over that wall, or [laughs] I'll take the longer route, go around that, but that's fine. And imposter syndrome, that doubt. And I'm assuming you still feel that from time to time, if not every day, because I still feel that.

Janine: Oh yeah, I do.

Chris Sean: I feel it when you say those words because I feel that myself, and it really hits me in the heart. But you know what? You're not the only one that feels that. And everyone else that's listening that feels like they just want to give up, they want to cry, I'll tell you this, code has made me cry personally. [laughs] I won't say this on YouTube. I'll say it on here. [laughs] But it has made me cry. [laughs]

Janine: You have a circle of trust.

Chris Sean: Yes. I mean, I'm in my 30s, and I feel like I'll go bald soon. I wanted to pull my hair out when I can't figure something out. But I can't [laughs] because I don't know if that hair won't grow back anymore. It's tough. But you know what? That's what makes you a better developer by pushing through. That's what makes you better at anything that you're doing in this industry and anything in general. For all the women who are doing the same thing, you know, self-taught aspiring developers trying to get a job in the industry or trying to be a developer in general, what words of advice would you want to give them before we end this here?

Janine: For women and girls who want to learn to code or are entering the tech industry, my biggest advice is to let you know that there is a space for you. You are capable, and I am here for you. I'm always happy to connect with other women who code. And I believe that we, as women, have a responsibility to help to empower other women who are also wanting to code and show them that it's completely possible. I'm in my 30s too, and I have definitely started a whole new career.

Chris Sean: Yeah, with no degree and literally just…

Janine: Well, no degree in computers. [chuckles]

Chris Sean: No degree in computers. Oh, you have a degree. Okay, nice. No degree in computer science. You're all self-taught. That's amazing. That's amazing.

Janine: If you have any other education, just know it's not wasted. The education that you do have gave you so many valuable skills.

Chris Sean: It really does. I mean, I, myself...I guess I'll share this. I haven't shared this with anyone yet. When I write emails or when I write Tweets on Twitter or something, my grammar and my vocabulary is horrible. So I use artificial intelligence. I sound like a nerd now. [laughter] I use AI. So I'll write what I'm supposed to write on that tweet or an email, and I'll put it into this artificial intelligence, machine learning, deep learning machine. And it will go ahead and read what I wrote, and they'll rewrite it and make me sound smarter than I really am. [laughs] But that's because I didn't go to school. I have spelling errors everywhere. I have to depend on that. But hey, if I went to college, I wouldn't have needed that AI anyway, but yeah. [laughs] So anyway, are there any last words you want to share, though, with anyone else aside from that before we end this?

Janine: Just want to just hammer home again that it's completely possible. It's not easy. There are going to be challenges, ups, and downs. But if you can find a community and be engaging with them and support others, they'll do the same for you, I promise. I would not have come as far as I have in just over a year if it wasn't for the community I found. And if you don't see what you need, you can create it.

Chris Sean: Facts. Thank you for sharing that. And where can people find you?

Janine: So, of course, I'm on Twitter. My handle is @CodeWithJanine. And you can also check out my portfolio at www.janinemarsh.dev. And from there, I have some other social links and links to my GitHub as well.

Chris Sean: Awesome. Everyone, if you're listening, you need to check out Janine. Your Twitter just blew up in 18 months. That's unbelievable. It took me five years to get 10,000 followers. [laughs] And you're at 7.5k in 18 months, which means you give valuable content. So, everyone, please check out Janine on Twitter @CodeWithJanine and check out Janine's website, janinemarsh.dev. Janine, I want to thank you so much for being on this podcast. I'm really looking forward to see where you go on your journey.

Janine: Thank you so much, Chris. It was great.

Jonan: Thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it. You can find the show notes for this episode along with all of the rest of The Relicans podcasts on therelicans.com. In fact, most anything The Relicans get up to online will be on that site. We'll see you next week. Take care.